Hurling stones…Moral superiority is no vindication for a poisonous heart. Hate always begets hate, never enlightenment. The Truth needs Love.

Stephen_Stoning_Lauri
^ The stoning of Stephen… Ironically Saul would become St Paul the Greatest Apostle and chosen vessel of God to preach Grace unto humanity… ending Moral legalism. After meeting Christ and receiving his commission he never again picked up the stones. He said “If it be possible… as much as lieth in you live peaceably with all men”.
Among other principles … including the love of God towards all men *as individuals*, and their equality he laid down the principles that would one day give birth to Libertarianism and the concepts of God given inalienable rights of individuals…. yet my post is only indirectly about this.

Todays blog post is on a subject that has been fermenting in my mind for many years, and it is written just as much to myself as to others.
It has to do with my personal development as a human being… a growth in personal wisdom and character., and most importantly it is aimed at making me a more effective soldier in the battle of Ideas.
My life over the last 20 years has been in Flux…. High Highs and low lows… and via the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune I have battled forth …. Flailing my sword about driven by emotion as much as reason…. And emulating others as much as blazing my own trail… and this has had as many disadvantages as advantages.
Not only have I learned Good habits, but also very bad ones, and todays post is about understanding all this better, and attempting to up my game… and become a better person in the process.
It wont be easy… as not only does it involve breaking entrenched habits that have become natural to me but also provide me with a certain amount of pleasure… and on top of that it involves reinventing my own Self-image of who I am… loosing some vices that I have mistaken as virtues and as such given me self esteem when I should have felt shame… and yet if I succeed in this I will start to see the virtues of character traits I have held to be vices… and I expect to generate a new basis for self esteem… via improved character and more effectiveness as a crusader for Truth, justice, and the salvation of individuals.
Big claims huh! :-)… yet definitely worthy of contemplation.

Lets get into it …
In these times of Terror and barbarity, it is commonplace to find the so-called lovers of Liberty to be openly pouring out hatred upon Muslims because of their concepts of Sharia Law, Jihad, intolerance, and brutality and so that even their most benign activities receive the most vehement responses.

You can be sure that at any mention of Islam that within minutes Self Righteous people seeking to promote terror and hate will post un-moderated pictures and accounts of atrocities that are supposed to foster and vindicate their outrage and hatred towards Muslims.
This is particularly noticeable in the attitudes of the disciples of that most militant of atheists… Ayn Rand… who collectively go by the name of ‘Objectivists’… yet also is common place rationale among other Non-Muslims… Jews, Hindus… and tragically… among the majority of those who go by the name of Christian.
What bothers me is that this negativity and outrage…. While at face value appears both Natural and justified… it does little towards actually saving the world, but plays into the hands of the terrorists and haters.
It is great at stirring up support for closing boarders to the Displaced, and Sending in the stealth Bombers…. Yet we have all herd the motto that while military action can be essential and justified… that wars are ultimately won in *battlefield of the minds of humanity.*
That forced peace due to military might is always short lived… with the evil still fermenting *as hatred*… just under the surface… just waiting for fresh opportunity to boil over again.
What I am about to say is not only worth contemplating in regards to ultimately winning the ideological war against Islamic extremism, but I believe is valuable in all aspects of the winning support for truth and enlightenment.
Here is an example of the problem as I see it…

Recently I came across some Objectivist Atheists engaged in their favorite past time of slinging shit at Islam… under the pretense that this was Righteous Indignation against an insidious Evil… yet for the record this conversation could just as well have been found coming from Christian supporters of Donald Trump.
A school was having a “Try the Hijab Day”…. followed by the comment ‘Why not have a “Try a Nazi Uniform day” also?’.

Sure enough the following comment and picture was solicited…
.
“Well done XXXX XXXXXX. What a great man you are. Islamic sadism is a terrible thing. Murderous attacks on innocent female victims including even infants are not just the action of a lone wolf or even of the multiple “lone wolves” involved. .There is an appalling mindset inculcated and encouraged from birth, so embedded and reinforced that not even one individual does anything to deter the horrific violence against the powerless. In civilised communities public entertainment comes in the form of sporting contests, musical entertainment and events uplifting for families. In savage anti-humanity societies public entertainment is a large hate-filled crowd of males exulting in the worst imaginable brutality.”

bashed by muslims

^^^That escalated quickly! … yet is typical.
The post went from an inter-cultural school lesson designed to ‘de-alienate children into an attempt to subvert them into accepting… maybe even committing atrocities!

Of course the terrible deeds committed in the name of Islam should generate indignation and elicit vocal responses, yet identifying problems and evils is at best only the beginning of the solution… and I believe that too many people allow *the problem* to cloud their better judgment and actually turn them into just another part of the problem rather than taking the higher road that leads the world out of darkness.
Terrorism and brutality ferment reciprocal hatred…. an unqualified blind type of hatred that is quick to pass a sentence of collective guilt upon an entire demographic because of the activities of a few.
Those drawn into this mindset mistake bigotry for righteous outrage and this is exactly what the terrorists, and hate groups feed upon.
This sort of reciprocity highlights the dilemma of being a Libertarian who hopes to create a better world.

As a Christian Libertarian I myself believe Islam to be a dangerous false religion,and am not at all surprised by the horrors that are being committed in it’s name, yet in the same token I also know that Atheism is also a dangerous false religion and that it too is responsible for infinite evils.
I also know that many so-called Christians are vile Statists… that they too support political oppression, and I respect the right of people to express their views, and criticize others.
Yet as a Libertarian I know not to be suckered into bogus collectivist mentality that underpins Bigotry.
While exercising my right to express my views, and fulfilling my duty to God to defend the faith,
I dont say *All Muslims* *All Atheists* are ‘Blar’ ‘Blar’… I try to avoid promoting bigotry.
With regards to Islamiphobia, it is sometimes too easy to post horrible pictures of victims of various hate groups… without clarifications… this is usually done *to promote bigotry… to illicit support for nasty prejudices*… and that is why It is very hard to be a Good Libertarian…. Speaking out against bigotry ,yet without underplaying the veracity of legitimate concerns .
And here I get to the crux of my argument for this post… the point in which I seek to improve my own game…
I believe this ‘essential balance’ between boldly facing heinous truths, yet not falling into bigotry can only be done by the sincere of heart who are prepared to look at both sides of any contentions… and to be found to be discussing things as objectively as possible… and that is never achieved by over-generalizations… and furthermore by looking not only at the truthfulness of contentious issues, but just as essentially *at the heart motive* of both ourselves… and of the Diatribes we encounter.
It is only if we maintain a clean heart… free of Rancor… motivated by Love…with our eyes on the prize … that we can be effective evangelists of enlightenment.
I am not saying I have mastered these arts.
In fact I am sure I haven’t… yet I am aware of the ‘Bad habit’ and base ‘pleasure’ that comes from opening up cans of malice upon the objects of our scorn.
I try to reserve that sort of ‘disregard’ for those whom I believe truly embody willful Evil… those whom have no desire to see their own wickedness… but revel in it… yet still you cant expect pouring out indignation to win anyone for truth!
It is in this sense an admission of frustration and defeat.
It is a sad truth that *some people*… many people are beyond reason… even those who claim to be champions of it!
The human factor is always at work… the bible says “the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.”, and again “That this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world but that men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.”
The problem with dishing out Evil for evil is that while it is relatively easy to identify evil values and beliefs, and to take some sort of pleasure from the idea that we are morally superior, yet after this what do we do with our knowledge?
Do we allow it to ferment hatred and justify aggression, justify building walls from which we throw righteous stones? (its amazing who condemns the stoning of sinners in the old testament yet who support their governments doing the same thing and worse… to foreigners with foreign beliefs)
Or do we try and overcome ideological evils via the higher path… via enlightened values… reason and example?

handshake

Do we even care about those people lost in darkness enough to open up and maintain dialogues, or do we write them off as wicked reprobates and stamp their foreheads with ‘Child of Satan’?
I believe that if the world is going to become more free and civil requires not just military supremacy, but Victories of enlightenment and good will to triumph over Darkness and reciprocal malevolence… and this can only be done by ‘Lovers’ not ‘haters’.
Our societies must not only truly embody Libertarian justice and equality, but also the spirit of benevolence towards ‘the lost’, and a desire to ‘win’ them over in their hearts and minds…. And these are ‘Christian humanitarian values towards the lost’ and why Christianity is one of the few ideologies with the power to overcome savagery, Crime, evil superstitions, and bigotry.
I am not simply saying that Christianity practiced well is both truthful and righteous… which it is… but that everybody… non-Christians as well can learn valuable insights into how to stimulate the growth of civilization… how to bring light and peace into areas of Darkness and Barbarism.
I also say that these truths expose Rancid ideologies that pose as Reason and enlightenment yet are in fact hotbeds of bigotry and hate… and that despite their self-acclamation as being the champions of humanity and social progress… are actually a big part of the problem!
They are almost as backward and deranged as the evils they profess to be the vanguard against.

Thus we must take care how we wield our Ideological swords.
Too often the ‘Superiority complex’ is used as justification for Hatred, bigotry, and pouring out Guile…. which only exacerbates the troubles and further alienates those who we should be trying to lead up the higher path.
And This is why the *heart motive* behind what we write and say determines the ‘Spirit’ of actions and the success or failure in respect to the war of ideas.
For sure Tirades that spew forth hot coals upon their chosen targets are ‘successful’ for attracting the applause and fame within other haters yet absolutely fail at bringing more enlightenment into the world.
I think there are times and places to have ‘in house’ pep talks to the troops that may be spoken in strong terms to emphasize the gravity of what is at stake… and the urgency with which they must rally, yet that cant be a summary of your entire modus opperandi!
You need to make it clear the while the evils are vile, and that arms may be needed, not to mistake this as an excuse to become a hater… and that Goodwill towards humanity must always be at the forefront.
If we realize that most people in dark lands believe backward things only do so because they have not been exposed to the truth in a way that they can see as being not only true… but delivered by souls of good will who *want their betterment*… this is far more likely to increase the sum in favour of enlightenment and lead to real victories in the battle of Ideas.
Missionaries are just as essential as Arms in the struggle as ultimately it is only an enlightenment that can overcome Evil ideologies.
And this is basic stuff… because we know that we ourselves are far more likely to respond positively to truths that are presented out of care than out of hate.

darkness vs love
I found this…From someone who actually won over hearts and minds rather than just pouring out scorn… upon those who deserved it.

changing the world
Actions speak louder than words

Now look at this pic below posted to an Objectivist FB page, and think about what such cartoons hope to achieve.
Read the comments

toilet koran... not smart.

Like • Reply •
B R
Bf That kind of shit will plug up your pipes in the worst way.
Like • Reply •
J M
J M Throw the Bible in there as well to make it even better.
Like • Reply •

Now read my comment…
Tim Wikiriwhi
Tim Wikiriwhi You know XXXXX that I can see the amusement factor in this picture… *yet contemplate this for a moment*… do you think it actually serves to further the cause of Freedom?
Do you think that it will be propitious in convincing Muslims to listen to you… to forsake Islam and embrace your values and ideals?
Dont you understand that this is actually childish and counter productive to your professed desire to enlighten the world?
Dont you see that this merely panders to the Haters… the bigots, those people who dont give a shit about *Saving the muslims*… but seek to insult them and vent hatred upon them?
Like • Reply •

I receive a typical response …. And my answer follows
B R said…. “ They will never forsake their values or their ideals. That is not islam. Islam is above any other ideals. To them anyone other than islam is beneath them. You can’t reason with someone who always thinks he is above you. You can bow to their needs. They will never bow to yours. How many women and children have to be raped and murdered for you to see this.”
Like • Reply • 2 hrs
My Reply…. “B R.. You have defeated yourself… maybe willfully so…. what you have said is something *You want to believe* rather than something that is empirically true, and you do it to excuse your own lack of reason when dealing with this problem.
You say they are beyond reason when the truth is ‘You cant be bothered trying… and you actually *hate* them… ie you dont have any compassion…. yet you have plenty of spleen that you want to vent.
Your character is such that you cant even be polite to them.
You look down your nose at them.
And you are cowardly.
The idea of befriending a Muslim terrifies you.
Let me tell you that Plenty of Muslims have been converted to Christianity by Christians who *Care enough* to take the trouble, and run the risks.
Christians *see the prize* and believe it’s worth every effort.
Wining lost souls to the truth… to truth that raises savages out of Dark superstitions and brings civilization… and ends Barbarisms…. fosters good will and peaceful co-existence.
Christianity sees Muslims and atheists *as valuable … precious individuals*… not as hopelessly Damned sub-humans.
Now if Objectivism really did value the human individual… really was ‘a movement for civilization’ it would not generate such defeatism , indifference…. Worse absolute hatred towards billions of human beings.
Like • Reply • Just now

self righteous

^^^ So my post looks to be finishing on a condemnation of the philosophy of Objectivism as *Anti-Individualism*
*Anti-Humanity* …. A Wolf in sheeps clothing.
Every virtue it pretends to extol are found to be Hot air…. mere platitudes.
It does not tend towards enlightenment and the value of human individuals and that is why it’s ranks are peopled with egotistical narcissists of malicious minds… and this leads them to promoting very *inhuman solutions* in dealing with the likes of the Victims of Islamic extremism and western foreign policy… solutions completely at variance with the founding principles of Libertarianism… esp with regards to the current Refugee crisis.

No doubt my comments here will not find many Objectivists open enough to see that I am right.
They might even say that I’m practicing ‘hate speech’ against them… that I’m not being PC enough towards them … that by my hardness I am not demonstrating ‘love’ towards them, and so failing on every level to reach *Their hearts and minds*…. Yet even if this were true… would not such an accusation actually vindicate my whole post?
You see that even if I fail to live up to this post myself, it does not diminish its validity… it just exposes my own hypocrisy, and poor character.
Ironically I learned this polemic ‘Militancy’ from my Objectivist mentors!
This is a fact that i now seek to remedy.
It is more characteristic of the Pharisee Saul *Before* he met the risen Christ.
St Paul typifies conversion from the spirit of Moralistic persecution.
His zeal for the truth, is tempered by compassion and humanity,… the true spirit of Evangelism… and he was willing to lay his life down for it.
Nobody has been a more ardent defender of truth against superstition, yet still he used the power of persuasion to win converts… from a loving heart not self righteous malice.

He said “… yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.”

Maybe Paul appreciated the grace God had shown him when he was in the throws of self righteous persecution.
Maybe his compassion comes from being once blind… yet by God’s grace… now he sees… and he knows that without brave preachers of grace and Good will… large swaths of humanity will remain under Satan’s Demonic sway… and be damned.

Realising my own problem… I am hereby seeking to learn better skills of communication… and this is what I meant in my introduction about this post being aimed as much at myself as at others.
Let me again talk about balance. I am not an apologist for ‘Politically Correctness’.
I believe The truth should be ruggedly defended and that content is far more important than grammar and worrying 24/7 about offending petty sensitivities… in fact as a Westy Bogan I simply cant function at that ‘Ivory tower level’… nor do I seek to be a part of that ‘elevated’ world.
I speak as a common man hoping to reach common people using common folk lingo and rationale.
And when talking to the likes of Objectivists you would hope that for all their claims of Rugged rationality that they of all people ought to be able to handle the truth hard spoken… yet again we find their claims to be hot air…. They love to dish it out but cant handle the slightest amount in return… so precious are their sensitivities… so vain are their egos …. They are not just beyond reproach… they are beyond reason.
I await *just one objectivist* to admit that I my post has validity, and that they will try and modify their behavior… to better embody the values their philosophy claims to precipitate.

I wrote a speech 10 years ago for the NZ Libz party, In it I talk about why I believe Objectivism fails to win over hearts and minds… and why Christianity on the other hand changed world history… and it has a lot to do with what I have been trying to talk to you about in this thread.
It is below.
I would like to point out that while I am no fan of PC rubbish, I think it is too easy… too convenient to pull out the ‘PC is evil’ card to justify rancid and obnoxious, and bigoted Tirades that are then expected to be vindicated as ‘Righteous indignation’… and ‘Rugged defense of liberty’ … etc when it is just Guile…

So To all you out there involved in the Battle of Ideas… no matter what color of faith or values you seek to propagate in this world, I hope my post helps you to appreciate that for victory in this ideological Battlefield, that *Heart motive* is just as important as being right.
It is sad to apprehend that sometimes the advocates of Evil understand this truth better than anyone, and that is why many of them *pretend* to care about those people in distress… only to lead them to destruction.
Tim Wikiriwhi
Christian Libertarian.

My Speech >>> Libz 10th birthday speech. Monday, 31 July, 2006 11:23 PM By Tim Wikiriwhi Christian Libertarian.

More From Tim….

The lonely road. My divorce from John Ansell.

A High Calling.

Anti-Terrorism at its finest. The Road out of darkness into the light.

They are out there! Heroic and Virtuous Islamic Granny Schools Murdering Extremists.

Islamic Cleric Against Religious Extremism

What can we do? Socialism’s Tungsten shell, and the refugee crisis

God Bless Angela Merkel, and those Germans whom courageously support her in these times which try Men’s souls.

The Art of Assimilation. Culture shock, Lawlessness, and the challenges facing humanitarian good will

Good Eye Closed. The Powder Keg. The Dead keep washing up on the coasts of Europe.

Not In My Name! Muslims Condemn Isis Terror.

Insidious Evil . When ethics are used as a weapon against you.

IDF Code of Ethics. Fighting a just fight.

The Diabolical tactics of Hamas: What the IDF is up against.

How does the Israeli Defence Force minimize civilian casualties?

“One Day”. The Peace Song of Our Generation. Matisyahu.

You will be next! The power of the terror mongers. When fear dominates reason… evil prevails

The Boston Bombing. Christian Grace and Freedom and the Higher Path.

Watching Buses Bear down… Why bother to Proselytize? Penn Jillette

The Battlefield of the Mind. Eternal Vigilance!

Life’s a Stanley Milgram Experiment. (part1)

Jefferson’s God. The Rock upon which Liberty is founded. (God save us from Atheism!)

Materialism renders Man Nought. Meaning-less, Value-less, Right-less

Protestant Christianity had a Baby… Libertarianism.

Monism: Evolutionary Psychology and the Death of Morality, Reason and Freewill.

We are not Robots Ayn Rand. We are Moral Agents.

Standing up for Justice more important than Personal Ambitions

The World is a Vampire.

This entry was posted in Antisemitism, Apartheid, Atheism, Ayn Rand, Beatles, Bigotry and Hate, Break on through to the other side, Charity, Christian Libertarianism, Dumbfounded Dipshits, Eternal Vigilance, Faith, Francis Schaeffer, Free Speech, Freedom, Grace, Guns, Heroism, Hope, Hypocrites, Imbeciles In Large Numbers, Indoctrination, Keeping It Real, King James Bible, Liberate your Mind!, Libertarianz, Love, Merciful Grace, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink.

8 Responses to Hurling stones…Moral superiority is no vindication for a poisonous heart. Hate always begets hate, never enlightenment. The Truth needs Love.

  1. Brendan says:

    Hi Tim

    I think most of us who claim to be followers of Christ have wrestled with our response to Islam, and to Muslims as people. Where I have arrived personally after a considerable time of reflection is that:

    As Christians we are called to love others as Christ loves us. This love is to extend even to our enemies. I’m not sure how well any of us measure up to that standard, myself included, but that’s the standard for Christians both individually and collectively.

    But that’s not the end of the matter.

    We also have a well established theology around the separation of Church and State. Romans 13 describes the role of the State, and most Christians believe that the first responsibility of the State is defence of the realm, and the protection of its citizens.

    Now the thing about Islam is that it is a political as well as a religious project. Politically it is triumphalist and expansionist in the same way that National Socialism in Germany and Communism in the Soviet Union were in the 20th century.

    Most western politicians refuse (so far) to publicly acknowledge this because it’s been 100 years since the last caliphate was defeated, and the nature of Islam has slipped from our national consciousness. Eventually, the ongoing attacks on innocent civilians in Europe, the UK, America and other western nations around the world will force a re-think by our politicians, but for now they prefer to treat these atrocities as ‘criminal offences’ rather than acts of asymmetric warfare, which is what they really are.

    I understand their difficulty – not All Muslims want to engage in or support this war (jihad) against the infidel, those who do are a distinct minority in the west, but even so the State has a responsibility to secure our boarders against them.

    They claim to be able to do this by careful checking of refugees and immigrants, however there are 50 on the SIS terrorist watch list in NZ who all came to NZ through this process, or are the children of those who immigrated here. UN Checks, NZ Government Checks are all an inadequate response to the threat we face, and I suspect one day we, like Australia, will discover that to our personal cost.

    Anyway, my point is that as Christians we are called to love. However as a nation state, New Zealand politicians have a wider responsibility that includes securing our borders against the threat that Islam represents. They are currently failing in that responsibility.

    Consequently many citizens are upset at this failure, and are not about to be talked out of their concerns by political weasel words. I’m not surprised therefore that you are seeing some extreme and unacceptable responses to Muslims in your discussions. Ironically, the political failure to address this problem is producing the very negative responses towards Islam, and sadly against Muslims that politicians are seeking to avoid.

    If Europe is any guide, this situation is unlikely to improve while Muslim immigration continues apace.

    • Tim says:

      The ultimate solution is however to establish an enlightenment within the Muslim world so that Extremism and the need to establish theocratic societies is asphyxiated.
      This is always going to be *the only hope*… not Border controls… not wars… because ideologies past through these things like demons and can propagate *inside your walls*…. *because* of your attempts to run an *exclusive* society…. because of your fears that have caused you to loose your humanity, and enact oppressive laws.
      So again the world will be safer when *Libertarian rights* are established for all and the State is *Properly* secular…. which does not mean *atheist* but based upon consent to Fundamental principles agreeable to all.
      That this is absolutely necessary can be seen from a video circulating at the moment in which ‘Britain first’ paraded Crosses down a predominantly Muslim quarter and claimed Britain was ‘Christian’ …. and got the expected response.
      The Truth is though most Poms have a history of Christian faith, that does not make Britain ‘A christian country’ … Britain historically has ‘progressed out of that mindset towards *Liberty* and a separation of church and state by which we can see that the Queen, though ‘Defender of the faith’ does not impose her personal beliefs on anyone… as was common in times past and resulted in oceans of Blood.

      VIDEO: BRITAIN FIRST CARRIES OUT CHRISTIAN PATROL IN ISLAMIST …

      VIDEO: BRITAIN FIRST CARRIES OUT CHRISTIAN PATROL IN ISLAMIST HOTSPOT BURY PARK, LUTONBury Park in Luton is an area notorious for Islamic extremists, ISIS fanatics, hate preachers and terrorists.It is perhaps the worst hotspot in the whole country for Islamists.In response to the recent imprisonment of an ISIS supporter (who is from Bury Park) Britain First carried out a "Christian Patrol" along the High Street and encountered ferocious hostility from local Muslims.What followed was a shocking look into the Islamisation of our beloved country.Our activists were attacked and pelted with eggs. Verbal abuse was rife. Muslims claimed they have "taken over" Luton and the UK. This is the future of Britain.

      Posted by Britain First on Saturday, January 23, 2016

    • Richard says:

      Should we close the borders to Muslim immigrants or should we let peaceful people cross borders freely? That is the question, I think.

      Of all the bloggers I know I think that you, Brendan, make the best possible case for closing the borders, and Tim makes the best possible case for welcoming Muslim immigrants.

      I’m still undecided. But I tend to side with Tim. My flirtation with Islamophobia is finished.

      It’s entirely possible that Donald Trump will be the next POTUS. His policy is to close the borders to Muslims. I’ve no idea how he proposes to do that but if he does it will be an interesting experiment. Like Colorado is an interesting experiment. 😉

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76An3ZxWNfk

    • Richard says:

      > We also have a well established theology around the separation of Church and State. Romans 13 describes the role of the State, and most Christians believe that the first responsibility of the State is defence of the realm, and the protection of its citizens.

      Brendan, you never did answer my couple of quick questions for conservative Christians. Better late than never.

      http://blog.eternalvigilance.me/2015/04/a-couple-of-quick-questions-for-conservative-christians/

  2. Brendan says:

    Hi Tim

    Well, one makes their best case and then leaves it up to others to decide. 🙂

    The problem with libertarianism, which I think influences both your and Tim’s thinking regarding Islam, is that it is essentially a utopian ideology that fails to address the realities of human nature. Sure, let peaceful Muslims come – they bring with them the religion of Islam whose prophet was committed to violent jihad, sexual slavery and the slaughter of captives. Sooner or later, some Kiwi Muslim or their sons or daughters are going to ‘get on board’ with jihad because that’s what it means to be a faithful Muslim.

    It’s a numbers game. The more you have the greater the risk. Look at Sydney, look at any European city. Tell me where I’m wrong.

    Now to your questions – sorry to have missed them before:

    1) Here’s the first question for conservative Christians. Do you think that the Founding Fathers of the United States received to themselves damnation?

    I’m have read the post but I don’t grasp the context is for that question. However the emphasis in Romans 13 regarding submission to state authority is based upon the assumption that it is ‘Godly’ authority because Paul goes on to say in verse 3 “For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.” – I have no responsibility to obey Godless rulers as the Apostles said themselves when forbidden to speak no more about Jesus. Godly rulers on the other hand are ‘God’s servants’. (Rom 13:4) I’m guessing the founding fathers in the US probably qualify for the most part.

    Does that address the question?

    2)Here’s the second question for conservative Christians. What belongings of Caesar’s did those whom Jesus addressed have in their possession that they could return?

    Jesus made it clear that his Kingdom was ‘not of this world’. (Jn18:36) Taxes belong to Caesar. This is why Christians are obligated to pay taxes, even what we might deem to be unjust taxes. Remember Jesus paid taxes for both himself and for Peter.

    • Richard says:

      > Does that address the question?

      Yes, it does. And right answer, too! 🙂

      > “For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.” – I have no responsibility to obey Godless rulers

      Of course, I consider the NZ government to be godless rulers—who are all too often a terror to good works, but not to evil—and consequently I have no interest other than a pragmatic interest in obeying the law of the land.

      > Taxes belong to Caesar. This is why Christians are obligated to pay taxes, even what we might deem to be unjust taxes. Remember Jesus paid taxes for both himself and for Peter.

      Again, thank you for answering the question. Wrong answer this time! Yes, Jesus did indeed pay taxes for both himself and for Peter. But it was a bit fishy. 😉

      So here’s a third quick question for conservative Christians. From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own children or from others?

      https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2017:24-27&version=NIV

  3. Brendan says:

    Richard, you need to read the entire passage on Jesus and taxes:

    “Then the children (of the Kingdom) are exempt,” Jesus said to him. 27 “But so that we may not cause offense, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours.”

    So you are not freed from your obligation to pay taxes because you consider the government to be Godless. It’s hard to imagine the National Government to be any more Godless and cruel than the Romans. You need to pay taxes to them ‘in order not to give offence’, and to follow Jesus example, not simply for ‘pragmatic’ reasons.

    Also, a point of clarification about Romans 13 “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. ”

    I have no problem believing that God appoints ‘Godless Governments’. I’m still obligated to obey them while they “are not a terror to good works, but to evil”. That is to say, provided the laws of the land don’t contradict the dictates of Scripture then I’m obligated to obey. On that basis, and in our context there would be very few instances where rebellion was legitimate, Daniel’s refusal to worship idols is one example in Scripture from the OT, but I cannot think of any in the new, except perhaps the disciples continuing to preach Jesus when forbidden to do so by the religious authorities.

    So – to your third question – Kings of the earth collect from ‘others’ but in order not to give offence and to follow Jesus example, we are still obligated to pay our taxes. Scripture to one side, we are also users of tax funded services, so why shouldn’t we be obligated to carry some of the delivery cost?

    Good discussion.
    B.

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